Socialism and communism always sound nice in theory, but in practice they’ve been disasters everywhere they’ve been tried. Full-blown socialist or communist states end up collapsing into corruption, shortages, or authoritarianism, it’s a pattern, not an accident.
Now, that doesn’t mean America’s corporatocracy is working. Far from it, corporate greed, sky-high healthcare costs, and predatory loans are strangling people. But swapping one broken system for another that’s already failed time and time again isn’t the answer.
And let’s be honest, when people say “socialism” here, what they usually mean is social democracy, like in Scandinavia. That’s not communism, it’s just capitalism with tighter guardrails. Big difference.
So if someone really wants the pure socialism/communism model, there are countries still running it. Nobody’s stopping them from moving there and living the reality instead of just dreaming about the theory.
Mate I could say the same thing about capitalism. It’s never worked in it’s pure form. It never provides for welfare and naturally leads to wealth concentration and revolution. It always collapses. When people say they want capitalism what they mean is they want socialism with some carve outs for markets.
It turns out people generally want some things to be socialized and some things to be market based. Stop saying ‘socialism doesn’t work’. It’s like saying ‘carrots are bad for you cause if you just eat carrots you’ll die’. Arguments like this are what got us here. Nuance exists, eating more vegetables isn’t going to kill us.
I don’t like capitalism either… And I’ve had this argument over and over. Pick one socialist country you’d move it right now… Any even the ones that collapsed.
And once you do why haven’t you moved yet from the aweful capitalism you hate so much.
imagine a pure model of democracy: every decision of the state, down to “should I send this email asking if the meeting has been moved to 2pm from 1pm?” “should this snowplough fill up with gas this morning?” had to be decided by a majority vote from every citizen. Impossible.
Imagine a pure model of meritocracy: only the best barista in the country could make your coffee, only the person best suited for garbage collection could pick up your trash…
I think you’re just moving the goalposts by following strict definitions. Most people, probably even here on Lemmy, when they say they want “socialist” policies probably mean “higher guardrails”.
The problem is that “normal” guardrails and safety nets that most other capitalist countries have are demonized as “socialism”. We haven’t been successful saying “no, it’s not”, so maybe reclaiming the word as not evil is the way to go
Seriously. I could take or leave government owning the means of production. You know what I want? I want universal healthcare and for no one to want for food or shelter. It doesn’t have to be extravagant. But in a country as rich as ours, if you can’t afford a studio apartment, we should just give one to you. It won’t be fancy. It won’t be where you want to live your entire life. But you will never want for a roof over your head. Everyone should have access to the bare necessities of life. Beyond that? Learn some skills, work, and build whatever lifestyle you want. But no one should want for the bare essentials.
Will a few just sit in their government-issued studio apartment and play video games til they die of old age? Sure. But the vast majority won’t. And really, the people with so little work ethic are the type most companies really don’t want working for them anyway. You can force people like that to get a job, but they’ll ultimately be a drag on any organization that manages to hire them. Best to just make sure everyone has the essentials and that anyone working is working because they want to work, not because the alternative is homelessness.
I’m definitely capitalist in that I think private wownership of the means of production usually works out best but there are many variations and we seem to pick the worst.
One of the fundamental purposes of government is to establish a market. Establish a foundation of legal and contractual processes, a currency, some level of transparency and fairness. We mostly have those, although the transparency and fairness has been heavily eroded.
But government is established “by the people, for the people”. Its governments role to configure that marketplace to serve the people, the society. Capitalism will always exploit negative externalities, imbalances of power, lack of transparency, but its governments role to structure those to not harm people or society, and we’re failing at that. Modern capitalism is structured for very short term profit-seeking even at the expense of the long term, but its governments role to consider that and structure the market to serve longer term goals. Some services for society are NOT handled well bely capitalism: that’s where government needs to step in more. It’s government that is failing , government captured by the oligarchs, government corrupted for profit and power seeking, government that’s lost its way. And by government I obviously mean those in charge, those who make the decisions, not those who get things done.
I found this article classifying types of capitalism and apparently its “ State-guided Capitalism”, but my preference gets fascinating from there - it classifies China as an extreme example whereas we tend to call it communism or socialism or something
In many countries, critical infrastructure, such as airlines or railways, are operated by companies in which the state owns all or most of the stock. These may also simply be directly controlled government entities in which case they function more like the police or fire service.
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State-guided capitalism is different to socialism….
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Examples of countries which have state-guided capitalism are everywhere. In fact, it could be argued that all countries are to some extent examples of it, as the modern economy always requires some form of regulation. Without such rules as health or safety regulations, societies end up with far more problems than without.
…
China – A great example of a heavily interventionist state is China. The Chinese government owns firms that together account for 40% of the economy,
While I agree the the words have been co-opted in American politics to mean something other than what they’re supposed to, that doesn’t take away from the dismal track record they have at succes6sful running a country.
We don’t need classical socialism in America as a replacement for capitalism we need something else entirely.
A program run by the government that offers assistance or relief to people isn’t socialism.
There’s a ton stopping people from moving! Moving to another country is a big deal. I want my people and my country to be better - running won’t save us from climate change.
If it naturally didn’t work then why did the USA have to intervene so many times to stop it from working? Most of the “failed” communist regimes failed at least in part because of USA intervention. The USSR, Cuba, Chile, China, North Korea, Vietnam, and Laos have all had some intervention from the USA.
Socialism is also not an economic or political system but a broad category of systems. Saying socialism has always failed would be like saying that fungi have always failed.
what you’ve just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard… At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this room is now dumber for having listened to it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul.
Socialism is when the workers control the means of production. In every single self proclaimed “Socialist” country the means of production is controlled by the government not the workers.
Does the fact that I don’t support capitalism either make any damn bit of difference to you people or do I have to blindly support socialism to fit in.
How do you even support a system of governance that doesn’t work! Or do you think that anything a government does to help its people is “socialism”.
I don’t know what to do with any of you anymore.
I ask you make one successful socialist country. I ask what socialist country would you want to live in. I ask why haven’t you moved there yet! No one ever answers because these are the country’s you have to choose from:
People’s Republic of China
Republic of Cuba
Lao People’s Democratic Republic
Socialist Republic of Vietnam
Democratic People’s Republic of Korea
Union of Soviet Socialist Republics
German Democratic Republic
People’s Republic of Poland
Czechoslovak Socialist Republic
Hungarian People’s Republic
Socialist Republic of Romania
People’s Republic of Bulgaria
People’s Socialist Republic of Albania
Socialist Federal Republic of Yugoslavia
Mongolian People’s Republic
People’s Democratic Republic of Yemen
Democratic Republic of Afghanistan
People’s Republic of Kampuchea
People’s Republic of Angola
People’s Republic of Mozambique
People’s Democratic Republic of Ethiopia
People’s Republic of the Congo
People’s Republic of Benin
Somali Democratic Republic
People’s Revolutionary Government of Grenada
Republic of Nicaragua (Sandinista period)
Socialism and communism always sound nice in theory, but in practice they’ve been disasters everywhere they’ve been tried. Full-blown socialist or communist states end up collapsing into corruption, shortages, or authoritarianism, it’s a pattern, not an accident.
Now, that doesn’t mean America’s corporatocracy is working. Far from it, corporate greed, sky-high healthcare costs, and predatory loans are strangling people. But swapping one broken system for another that’s already failed time and time again isn’t the answer.
And let’s be honest, when people say “socialism” here, what they usually mean is social democracy, like in Scandinavia. That’s not communism, it’s just capitalism with tighter guardrails. Big difference.
So if someone really wants the pure socialism/communism model, there are countries still running it. Nobody’s stopping them from moving there and living the reality instead of just dreaming about the theory.
Mate I could say the same thing about capitalism. It’s never worked in it’s pure form. It never provides for welfare and naturally leads to wealth concentration and revolution. It always collapses. When people say they want capitalism what they mean is they want socialism with some carve outs for markets.
It turns out people generally want some things to be socialized and some things to be market based. Stop saying ‘socialism doesn’t work’. It’s like saying ‘carrots are bad for you cause if you just eat carrots you’ll die’. Arguments like this are what got us here. Nuance exists, eating more vegetables isn’t going to kill us.
😙👌
Did you even read my comment?
I don’t like capitalism either… And I’ve had this argument over and over. Pick one socialist country you’d move it right now… Any even the ones that collapsed.
And once you do why haven’t you moved yet from the aweful capitalism you hate so much.
nobody wants a pure model of anything
imagine a pure model of democracy: every decision of the state, down to “should I send this email asking if the meeting has been moved to 2pm from 1pm?” “should this snowplough fill up with gas this morning?” had to be decided by a majority vote from every citizen. Impossible.
Imagine a pure model of meritocracy: only the best barista in the country could make your coffee, only the person best suited for garbage collection could pick up your trash…
Liquid democracy can be heavily automated and handle that email question.
Mildly off topic, what does liquid communism look/taste like?
Commbucha
Delicious. I’m in!
Vodka. Or rum.
I refer you to the third paragraph of my comment.
I think you’re just moving the goalposts by following strict definitions. Most people, probably even here on Lemmy, when they say they want “socialist” policies probably mean “higher guardrails”.
The problem is that “normal” guardrails and safety nets that most other capitalist countries have are demonized as “socialism”. We haven’t been successful saying “no, it’s not”, so maybe reclaiming the word as not evil is the way to go
Seriously. I could take or leave government owning the means of production. You know what I want? I want universal healthcare and for no one to want for food or shelter. It doesn’t have to be extravagant. But in a country as rich as ours, if you can’t afford a studio apartment, we should just give one to you. It won’t be fancy. It won’t be where you want to live your entire life. But you will never want for a roof over your head. Everyone should have access to the bare necessities of life. Beyond that? Learn some skills, work, and build whatever lifestyle you want. But no one should want for the bare essentials.
Will a few just sit in their government-issued studio apartment and play video games til they die of old age? Sure. But the vast majority won’t. And really, the people with so little work ethic are the type most companies really don’t want working for them anyway. You can force people like that to get a job, but they’ll ultimately be a drag on any organization that manages to hire them. Best to just make sure everyone has the essentials and that anyone working is working because they want to work, not because the alternative is homelessness.
I’m definitely capitalist in that I think private wownership of the means of production usually works out best but there are many variations and we seem to pick the worst.
One of the fundamental purposes of government is to establish a market. Establish a foundation of legal and contractual processes, a currency, some level of transparency and fairness. We mostly have those, although the transparency and fairness has been heavily eroded.
But government is established “by the people, for the people”. Its governments role to configure that marketplace to serve the people, the society. Capitalism will always exploit negative externalities, imbalances of power, lack of transparency, but its governments role to structure those to not harm people or society, and we’re failing at that. Modern capitalism is structured for very short term profit-seeking even at the expense of the long term, but its governments role to consider that and structure the market to serve longer term goals. Some services for society are NOT handled well bely capitalism: that’s where government needs to step in more. It’s government that is failing , government captured by the oligarchs, government corrupted for profit and power seeking, government that’s lost its way. And by government I obviously mean those in charge, those who make the decisions, not those who get things done.
I found this article classifying types of capitalism and apparently its “ State-guided Capitalism”, but my preference gets fascinating from there - it classifies China as an extreme example whereas we tend to call it communism or socialism or something
While I agree the the words have been co-opted in American politics to mean something other than what they’re supposed to, that doesn’t take away from the dismal track record they have at succes6sful running a country.
We don’t need classical socialism in America as a replacement for capitalism we need something else entirely.
A program run by the government that offers assistance or relief to people isn’t socialism.
The propaganda is strong with this one
👏👏👏
Congratulations on your use of the word of the day PROPAGANDA.
There’s a ton stopping people from moving! Moving to another country is a big deal. I want my people and my country to be better - running won’t save us from climate change.
Yes but people stive to be in better country’s. If you were able to move to a better place why wouldn’t you?
If someone believes that socialism/communism is so grand they should move to the better country. Like china. Or north Korea.
If it naturally didn’t work then why did the USA have to intervene so many times to stop it from working? Most of the “failed” communist regimes failed at least in part because of USA intervention. The USSR, Cuba, Chile, China, North Korea, Vietnam, and Laos have all had some intervention from the USA.
Socialism is also not an economic or political system but a broad category of systems. Saying socialism has always failed would be like saying that fungi have always failed.
what you’ve just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard… At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this room is now dumber for having listened to it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul.
Socialism is when the workers control the means of production. In every single self proclaimed “Socialist” country the means of production is controlled by the government not the workers.
I guarantee the capitalists told you that, and you just believed them without question.
Does the fact that I don’t support capitalism either make any damn bit of difference to you people or do I have to blindly support socialism to fit in.
How do you even support a system of governance that doesn’t work! Or do you think that anything a government does to help its people is “socialism”.
I don’t know what to do with any of you anymore.
I ask you make one successful socialist country. I ask what socialist country would you want to live in. I ask why haven’t you moved there yet! No one ever answers because these are the country’s you have to choose from:
People’s Republic of China Republic of Cuba Lao People’s Democratic Republic Socialist Republic of Vietnam Democratic People’s Republic of Korea Union of Soviet Socialist Republics German Democratic Republic People’s Republic of Poland Czechoslovak Socialist Republic Hungarian People’s Republic Socialist Republic of Romania People’s Republic of Bulgaria People’s Socialist Republic of Albania Socialist Federal Republic of Yugoslavia Mongolian People’s Republic People’s Democratic Republic of Yemen Democratic Republic of Afghanistan People’s Republic of Kampuchea People’s Republic of Angola People’s Republic of Mozambique People’s Democratic Republic of Ethiopia People’s Republic of the Congo People’s Republic of Benin Somali Democratic Republic People’s Revolutionary Government of Grenada Republic of Nicaragua (Sandinista period)
Pick one go on. Pick any one of these.
The USSR would be great, if the CIA hadn’t destabilized it and installed a puppet to overthrow it.
Capitalism is cancer that destroys everything it touches.